I'll be there.. another worthwhile protest as was the make poverty history march

"I'll be there.. another worthwhile protest as was the make poverty history march"

Are you being ironic? I thought MPH was terribly innefective. Unfortunately, until we have militant grassroots political movements (that force change, rather than ask for change), we wont be able to influence the economic policy as much as we would like. So a tokenistic protest is all we can do right now.

Hmm... I guess i just am not sure what your definition of "worthwhile" is!

Its still worth turning out on the 24th, to have an anti-capitalist message in the public domain. Lots of people I speak to are pissed of that the corrupt banks are being bailed out with what is ultimately our money, so that sometime down the line when the banks recover, they can continue screwing the money out of us. It will be good to have a public manifestation of this anger!

HBOS, RBS, Lloyds TSB, etc are basically insolvent. Thanks to the way credit risks were hidden and sold on and resold on, the government don't have a clue how deep the hole is. If things turn out to be really bad then this will leave the state with a debt burden that we must all pay for, to the detriment of the positive things governments provide (*shock*! anarchist in defence of state!)

Supposing things look worse now than they really are, and the banks recover, we will have achieved a partial nationalisation of the financial system. Supposing of course that future governments intend to keep the share in these banks.

The alternative is further bailout demands by the banks, and growing national debt.

The argument that this bailout is necessary to keep banks lending to small businesses and home buyers is of course bogus. If the government is able to put forward these sums they could be made available to new financial institutions constituted on an entirely different basis. For example, councils could be provided with the funds necessary to invest in new social housing and to buy out failing mortgages. (This would also improve the situation of the bloody commercial banks, allowing them to get rid of bad mortgages, but attacking the problem at the right end). Why not create community-run trusts to invest in workers' co-ops? Why not persue any of the innumerable democratic alternatives?

This isn't being done, of course, because the government doesn't work for the people; they work for the super rich elite who have more than 'modest savings' to lose when their banks collapse.

Please, no activist wank and pseudonyms for fuck sake, nobody gives a fuck but yourselves.

This protest may actually achvhieve mainstream support for once so its goot to see you've kept the terms simple and in English (Edinburgh Financial Crisis Protest is a great title).

Is this being flyposted in non-student and activist locations or is it for the usual suspects (in which case I'll give it a very wide berth).

Theres talk that Council staff with pay tied up in Icelandic banks may not be paid this month but will they even find out about this protest?

Oh and btw most people in the centre of Edinburgh are still at work at 4.30pm, why not try gathering from 5pm instead?  Otherwise it just says to me that this is for students etc

And what are you trying to achieve?  Seeing as you need to make a point, surely you should set out a handful of demands eg - rise is dole money, increased spending on social housing to house those soon to be made homeless, subsidised heating and food bills? etc?

Gary your first line comes close to getting your post hidden as abuse. Please don't mix sensible points with flaming.

None of the posts above are using pseudonyms, as such, they're usernames. Not peoples' full names, true, but no more "activist wank" than anywhere else on the internet.

I don't think that 4:30 vs 5pm makes much difference: have you never ducked out of work early? It's not like protestors won't still be there half an hour after arriving, or that workers won't be heading out the office before 5...

Apart from that I agree with just about all you said.

Any ideas on locations for publicity?

apologies for that.

i'd try and get the mainstream media to report it for you in advance tbh, its the simplist way.  this has major novelty value for them at the minute, they're keen to report any angle on the credit crunch they can so they may well be interested in this.  especially if you can throw the facebook bit to them at the same time - double novelty.  if you remove the politics they'll find it irresistable -  the politics can come later?

other than that i would suggest a few discreet flyposters near the major offices in the city centre,

anti-banker rhetoric is really dangerous at this stage as so many work for mediocre money in low-power jobs for the big banks in edinburgh and many will take that talk personally even though they shouldn't.  they may soon be the biggest losers in all of this.  these people are scared right now and are probably unlikely to attend this demonstration but they will be intrigued by it, its important to play the long game and not antogonise these people. 

seems its not going to be an overnight collapse now, but a long recession/ depression and at this stage any steps should be for the long haul, making the anger and fear heard and felt, but without undermining the solidarity of groups of people who may eventually form a strong coalition over the next few years but who are at different stages of getting to that point at this minute.

equally its counter productive to say that the bailout is wrong at this stage - wiser to say nothing at all on the thing itself imo.  this recent action is saving most working peoples pensions.  in that respect its in the interests of most.  it will hurt us all for years and years and thats the time that solidarity will be required, and its important not to undermine that now. i saw a group using this 'collapse faster' slogan in london last week which was ridiculous, if people will remember that they will remember these people did not caring about their interests.  they may as well have used the slogan 'we are irrellevent to ordinary people but we love watching capitalism collapse and we ourselves are getting a kick out of this misery while thousands are being laid off!'.  idiotic. 

so yeah from an idiological point of view we see that the bailout is disgusting perhaps, but lets get real about what saying that means in reality.

tbh its very difficult to know exactly what line to take right now without sounding happy/ antagonistic/ dangerous/ etc.

btw i meant that tom joad thing re: pseudonyms.  nothing wrong with using a false name but going on about it is a total distraction

its also a bit wanky in the "luther blissett" way- (who is himself bemused and pissed off at being used as a pseudonym i once read)

Yeah half the fun of pseudonyms is working out what they refer to.

It's a quick-developing situation and I think the main reason we haven't seen more protests is that people aren't sure what's going on (plus "Collapse Faster" is hardly an appetising prospect for many). Nevertheless I think there's an undercurrent that what's going on is a scam (see the website Bail Us Out for examples).

Take your point about "anti-banker" rhetoric potentially excluding bank workers. Maybe "bank bosses" would be a better focus of ire. Only a few token sackings have taken place at the top.

I think that soon we'll see the costs of the bailout being pushed onto society, what with unemployment and inflation both sharply up. We'll see in the pre-budget statement coming up. Raising consciousness that we are about to get hammered by this might be the most useful thing that the protest can do; at the same time as showing that people aren't just going to accept whatever they're told.

Positing this protest as one against the robbery of our tax money, while it will undoubtedly appeal to anti-statists, libertarians and others, isn't going to find much support from the general public, most of whom grudgingly back the bail-out. The question is are you seeking mass appeal or minority appeal? Positing the protest in the purest and simple terms, that is the failure (and a contining failure at that) of capitalism to deliver secure livlihoods, peace and prosperity would be a much better way forward. I agree wholeheartedly about not antagonising bank workers with anti-bank rhetoric. Most finance workers in Scotland - treated like serfs - do indeed work for mediocre money in low-power jobs. As for the photograph featuring a "Jump You Fu**er's" sign on Wall Street. Is there some good reason why that hasn't been hidden as abuse? Displaying a photograph calling for the suicide of finance workers in America - many of whom are low paid and are visiting local Wall Street churches in droves and in tears after losing their jobs - is something of a low point for Indymedia Scotland

There's a long-existing common knowledge / cultural trope / meme that the Great Depression led to stockbrokers hurling themselves from windows (though it might not actually be true, it's somewhat of a cliche in cartoons). Not secretaries, not cleaners, not clerks. Stockbrokers and speculators of the type clearly blamed by many for the current situation.

The Jump You Fuckers photo clearly refers to this meme and is clearly not calling for the suicide of finance workers in general. It's a funny, harsh comment on the current situation which plays on that common knowledge and makes the historical connection efficiently.

Stockbrokers are not by any stretch of the imagination poorly-paid and I don't think that they're particularly sensitive souls either. They might be upset about the prospect of losing their jobs but they are not going to face the choice of Heating or Eating this winter, unlike (for example) their cleaners who never received a living wage from them in the first place.

So, if the author thinks the photo's appropriate to illustrate an article on a protest about the failures in the capitalist system then that's fair enough. Not "a low point" in my view. Angry placards are not abuse.

As for the photograph featuring a "Jump You Fu**er's" sign on Wall Street. Is there some good reason why that hasn't been hidden as abuse? Displaying a photograph calling for the suicide of finance workers in America - many of whom are low paid and are visiting local Wall Street churches in droves and in tears after losing their jobs - is something of a low point for Indymedia Scotland

I think most of us ken that was aimed at the fuckers who retire on a £500,000 per annum pension (or equivalent in dollars euros etc)

See updated time and event details here

where can I get posters/flyers for this?

A Flyer can be downloaded here :)

We are getting a large run of them printed off today, so contact edinburghbankprotest@ymail.com to get some.

Blatently the bankers are pissing themselves laughing at all of us. The chances of them all jumping out of windows are as remote as ever fuck. Not quite as remote as a bailout or anything remotely similar. 

My problem with the demo was the language used in the publicity. "Where is our bailout?", then on the flyer a list of 'demands'. Such submissive posturing is best left for proper members of parliament.

I can hardly believe the pathetic sound of begging for a lower fuel bill. Is that the extent of desires or aspiration? If it is not then why not have the courage to say exactly what is on your mind? Why dilute your message?