Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

 Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

 I used look up to punk scenes as hotbeds of radicalism that create alternative and free spaces for people to come together, away from corporate intrusion and authority. You can almost take for granted that most punk scenes, judging by the patches and “anarchy is order” symbols everywhere, that most punks identify with libertarian and egalitarian ideals and taking personal responsibility for their actions, and that oppression would be swiftly kicked out the door.

I identify as an anarchist primarily, and possibly as a “punk with a small p” as one friend put it. I like anarcho-punk, and the anti-state/authority/oppression lyrics that go with it. I thought that inviting the punk scene for a post SmashNATO! party as a fundraiser and a way to unwind after a day of being pushed around by the police would be a good thing – a bit of fun and a way to raise some cash to pay for the anti-NATO convergence.

Some of the people who showed up for the gig and indeed some of the band members had been out on the streets with us that day. However, there were far more people at the gig than had come to the demo, which I found hard to understand.

What had started as a fun night of politically-oriented punk music quickly descended into a drunken, drugged-up, macho free for all. I was disgusted by the way that some of the men in the room conducted themselves – far too much alcohol combined with macho posturing created an oppressive environment, where the safety of other people in the room was completely disregarded. People who had spent the day fighting the police, and months before building up to a big political event had “stupid hippy cow” shouted at them. People who asked others to respect the safer spaces agreement and not to smoke inside were showered with abuse from these so-called libertarians.

At one point, someone who had spent the day being shoved to the ground by cops, followed around by evidence gathering teams and generally oppressed by white men took the microphone and had a go at people for their machismo, and asked people at the gig why they weren't at the demo earlier. That didn't go down well - she was immediately surrounded by angry men who tried to physically intimidate her into handing the microphone back. Minutes later, she was thrown to the floor and stamped on by one of these men. Quite rightly, he was tackled to the floor, and nearly thrown down the stairs, had it not been for the bouncer stepping in.

Granted, there was too much alcohol at the gig. BYOB and punk gigs obviously don't mix. But you would have thought that people could take more responsibility for themselves. Anarchism does not mean that you can do what you want and act how you want – that is individualist – anarchism is about taking personal responsibility for ourselves and those around us. It is about the collective, and looking out for each other. It is about defending our friends from oppressive behaviour. It is about creating spaces that are safe, regardless of whether you think someone is a “hippy” or not punk enough for you.

Then it came to closing time, and because everyone was so pissed and high, everything had run behind schedule and the last band was on stage for thirty seconds before everyone needed to clear out. It had been made clear that the gig needed to end and everyone needed to be out by 1am out of respect for the licence, and the fact that the Forest was good enough to let us use the space for the gig.

But people were not happy, and prioritised their “right” and desire to hear the last band over the sustainability of one of Edinburgh's only volunteer-run, free spaces. One punk (the one who doesn't like hippies) said “you'll have a riot on your hands” at the suggestion that the gig would end before the last band got to play. What a great cause – riot against people trying to create positive change and take on the military-industrial complex (anarchy in action) because people were too wasted to keep to time. Where were you when we could have rioted on the streets against imperialist NATO and fascist police?

And finally, when the hangovers cleared, “Boycott the Fascist Cafe” appeared on MySpace. In keeping with the reactionary and macho politics of its authors, the page has classics like:

“Punks and right wing hippies don't mix. We hope you will join us in boycotting the Forest by not going to their gigs and not playing there. We would like bands to actively boycott the place so as not to put the punks through the Forest bullshit! WE would like to also know your horrible experiences from the Forest Cafe...”

Well here's an account of a horrible experience from the Forest Cafe, involving Edinburgh's macho punk scene.

The Forest Cafe is one of the very few free, volunteer and cooperatively-run places in Edinburgh. Despite massive hassle and intimidation from the police, it helped the NATO Welcoming Committee find a convergence space. During the G8 it hosted the Indymedia Centre, and over the years has done loads for political causes in Edinburgh, whether as a meeting space, venue for fundraisers or through its grants programme. The thought that this kind of place would be boycotted and other corporate venues that are run for profit promoted ahead of it by people supposedly identifying as anarchists is unbelievable. How can we have a revolution if we don't support free and cooperatively-run spaces, but instead support gentrified and capitalist venues?


In conclusion, this is a silly argument to get into that distracts us from the important issues that people who identify as libertarians should be focusing on – like smashing patriarchy, the state and militarism. Hopefully one day, when the levels of machismo and alcohol consumption have subsided, we can call get along.

Comments

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

punk ain't dead, it just smells that way.*

seriously, the forest rules. people fae round here don't realize how lucky they are. immature fools oughta try living in any of the cities or towns north of the central belt and see the difference.

and if you're no fae round here, go home for a wee bit, try finding a decent gig, or a place where you can chill out and play chess and chat without having to spend a fortune on shitty beer. good bloody luck

optionally, try quitting drink for a wee bit. you might feel better. i do.

-is me, innit

* yeah yeah, i stole that off a toilet wall at faslane, sue me

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

I consider myself a 70"S hippie-I understand struggle and revolution-my son is what I consider truely "punk" minded-the people you speak of are NOT punk,but POSER,and they seem to follow every movement for there own benifit. all we can do is do what we always do and move foreward. change WILL come.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Most of the people at the gig were great. It's such a shame that a handful of macho wankers fucked it up for everyone. They totally dominated the space and made the atmosphere really tense, when most of us wanted to relax.

One guy had an empty beer can thrown at him and while a friend of mine was asking him if he was okay she was called a "hippy cow." I told him this wasn't on and that action like that was against our safer spaces agreement. He simply said that "he was a bassist in one of the bands" and that he would batter anyone who attacked him. I told him that we all took responsibility for the space being safe and accessible by everyone and that if he behaved like that again we'd make him leave. I argueed with a lot of people for him not to be thrown out, but I shouldn't of bothered.

I had some good discussions with some of the band members. One guy kept being jumped on by this wasted guy all through his set while he was trying to sing. Everyone just watched and I had to walk from the back of the room to get the guy off. I couldn't understand why all these aparently punk and DIY minded people just stood and watched someone get loads of hastle. The guy thanked me for getting him off and didn't understand why no-one else helped him.

Having grown up surrounded by the punk movement of the late 80's and the 90's I had higher hopes for the movement in Edinburgh. I think it can still be salvaged from the macho possers who haven't forgotton what punk stands for, but probably didn't fucking get it the first time round.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Fabbri wrote:

Most of the people at the gig were great. It's such a shame that a handful of macho wankers fucked it up for everyone. They totally dominated the space and made the atmosphere really tense, when most of us wanted to relax.

One guy had an empty beer can thrown at him and while a friend of mine was asking him if he was okay she was called a "hippy cow." I told him this wasn't on and that action like that was against our safer spaces agreement. He simply said that "he was a bassist in one of the bands" and that he would batter anyone who attacked him. I told him that we all took responsibility for the space being safe and accessible by everyone and that if he behaved like that again we'd make him leave. I argueed with a lot of people for him not to be thrown out, but I shouldn't of bothered.

I had some good discussions with some of the band members. One guy kept being jumped on by this wasted guy all through his set while he was trying to sing. Everyone just watched and I had to walk from the back of the room to get the guy off. I couldn't understand why all these aparently punk and DIY minded people just stood and watched someone get loads of hastle. The guy thanked me for getting him off and didn't understand why no-one else helped him.

Having grown up surrounded by the punk movement of the late 80's and the 90's I had higher hopes for the movement in Edinburgh. I think it can still be salvaged from the macho possers who haven't forgotton what punk stands for, but probably didn't fucking get it the first time round.

 

i suggest pepper spray for these dipshits, its illegal in this country though, loud wink

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Fabbri wrote:

It's such a shame that a handful of macho wankers fucked it up for everyone. They totally dominated the space and made the atmosphere really tense, when most of us wanted to relax.

... that was against our safer spaces agreement.

 

i just would like to remind that punk rock is not a cream cake!! i took part in the demos (which were also led by police!) and came to the gig. my feeling was that some people here have an idyllic view of what punk rock is.. and saying about the 'safer spaces agreement'- in a context of 'anarcho-punk-shows exactly the enmeshment into system.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Fabbri wrote:

It's such a shame that a handful of macho wankers fucked it up for everyone. They totally dominated the space and made the atmosphere really tense, when most of us wanted to relax.

... that was against our safer spaces agreement.

 

i just would like to remind that punk rock is not a cream cake!! i took part in the demos (which were also led by police!) and came to the gig. my feeling was that some people here have an idyllic view of what punk rock is.. and saying about the 'safer spaces agreement'- in a context of 'anarcho-punk-shows exactly the enmeshment into system.

there is nothing contradictory about anarcho-punk and a safer spaces agreement. if you're equating anarchism with a lack of any system or structure then no wonder the movement is so disorganised and ineffective. Anarchy is responsibility - and anyone who makes excuses for people's behaviour on the grounds that its in a context of anarcho-punk is as counterrevolutionary as those who wouldn't pay corkage.

also, a safer spaces agrement is about putting structures in place that have been agreed before by consensus so that people are safe, and to have an accountability mechanism for those who break it and oppress people. the police, on the other hand, are just there to oppress people.

a song springs to mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ydMy7jpAM

Punk ain't no religious cult
Punk means thinking for yourself
You ain't hardcore cos you spike your hair
When a jock still lives inside your head

Nazi punks
Nazi punks
Nazi punks-Fuck Off!

Nazi punks
Nazi punks
Nazi punks-Fuck Off!

If you've come to fight, get outa here
You ain't no better than the bouncers
We ain't trying to be police
When you ape the cops it ain't anarchy

[Repeat chorus]

Ten guys jump one, what a man
You fight each other, the police state wins
Stab your backs when you trash our halls
Trash a bank if you've got real balls

You still think swastikas look cool
The real nazis run your schools
They're coaches, businessmen and cops
In a real fourth reich you'll be the first to go

[Repeat chorus]

You'll be the first to go
You'll be the first to go
You'll be the first to go
Unless you think
 

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

The problem comes from the "elitist" parts of any group.  Whoever got on the microphone and heckled people for being at the gig and not the march (how many were actually there?  Twenty or so?) didn't really have a right to do so, and was intentionally confrontational in her actions.

My experience of the forest cafe has generally been one of a place run by people with enough money to not have to worry about volunteer work, think they're better than others for it, and are more than willing to chasise others for not agreeing with them on every level - Elitist hippies.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have punks who've been part of the punk scene in Edinburgh for years, and have an actively dim view of anyone who has a "proper" job and doesn't agree with them drinking outside wherever the gig they're at to see is, or who enforces a legality that doesn't allow alcohol not bought on the premises to be consumed there, refusing to accept that "their way" can actually lose other people their jobs and livelihoods - Elitist punks.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

At the other end of the spectrum, you have punks who've been part of the punk scene in Edinburgh for years, and have an actively dim view of anyone who has a "proper" job and doesn't agree with them drinking outside wherever the gig they're at to see is, or who enforces a legality that doesn't allow alcohol not bought on the premises to be consumed there, refusing to accept that "their way" can actually lose other people their jobs and livelihoods - Elitist punks.

word.

it's sure easy to slag off folks with jobs when you've got no responsibilities of your own and live off the charity of the state. on the dole, the state's your boss. they say jump, and you jump, or lose your money and your house.

sit on your arse, sign a piece of paper once a fortnight, get your pittance from the state, your benefactor and ruler. go to a gig every other week, what a way to change the world. and prop up the breweries that are makin our streets no-go zones every friday night while you're at it. what a way to change the world eh?

he who feeds you owns you.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

At the end of the day, Im sure the people running the forest don't want to have to be authoritarian towards people and tell them what to do for kicks like certain civic professions. They are doing it so that the cops don't have a reason to come into the cafe/give them hassle and make the atmosphere even worse. The police will use any pretext to do what they want so don't bloody well give them one! If it is the same group we are talking about, they kept accusing me of being a copper because of my height which started to become unfunny after about 5 minutes of question asking.

Punk is a state of mind not some fashion statement, that allows an elitist view of others based on the fact that they are not dressed as "hard-core" as you. If you rebel against the state and engage in civil disobedience it will have much more of an impact on other people around you if you do it looking like a relatively normally dressed person than if you are dressed the way a lot "punks" do as they will just be dismissed as being "one of those trouble makers."

They need to get rid of this elitist mindset that they shouldn't co-operate with other like minded people because they are not as "hardcore" as them, as this flys in the face of the anarchist ideal. It creates divides within our own movement which the state, fascists and the right wing press already do, so don't bloody help them and help to build a MASS movement, not an elitist social club.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

At the end of the day, Im sure the people running the forest don't want to have to be authoritarian towards people and tell them what to do for kicks like certain civic professions. They are doing it so that the cops don't have a reason to come into the cafe/give them hassle and make the atmosphere even worse. The police will use any pretext to do what they want so don't bloody well give them one! If it is the same group we are talking about, they kept accusing me of being a copper because of my height which started to become unfunny after about 5 minutes of question asking.

i've been asked if i'm a copper a few times cos of goin to punk gigs in my work clothes. i think it's hilarious. cos i don't wear their uniform they think i'm not punk. hey, some of us have to wear civilian uniform as disguise so they can work. i'm a student and i can't claim the dole, or survive without working unless i'm gonna get buried in bank debt, so i have to go around in disguise.


the thing is i kinda like wearing smart shirts now, i thought for a while i was foolishly adapting to society, but that's just daft.

still punk on the inside

ECP

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

The problem comes from the "elitist" parts of any group.  Whoever got on the microphone and heckled people for being at the gig and not the march (how many were actually there?  Twenty or so?) didn't really have a right to do so, and was intentionally confrontational in her actions.

My experience of the forest cafe has generally been one of a place run by people with enough money to not have to worry about volunteer work, think they're better than others for it, and are more than willing to chasise others for not agreeing with them on every level - Elitist hippies.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have punks who've been part of the punk scene in Edinburgh for years, and have an actively dim view of anyone who has a "proper" job and doesn't agree with them drinking outside wherever the gig they're at to see is, or who enforces a legality that doesn't allow alcohol not bought on the premises to be consumed there, refusing to accept that "their way" can actually lose other people their jobs and livelihoods - Elitist punks.

just outa interest, i was born of rape to an alcoholic mother on a council estate in north london. I have been vollunteering at the forest since it began. I continue to have no money but love forest . just outa interest.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

There are several opinions here but how many on here was actually there? I am the partner of the guy in the article whom this writer claims stamped on her head. I will give the full account and not some distorted man hating one. By the way I am female before you call me 'macho'. I am a punk, I have two degrees. My degrees consist of sociology, social policy and psychology, I am in professional employment, I am a mother of three boys (sounds like more machos). I have also been actively campaigning in politics for around twenty years. Perhaps this girl is a little naive on punk and indeed politics. Firstly, you do not need to attend any rally to be actively involved in politics. Its all about choice and life circumstances. Is it not fascist to steal a microphone from a band and complain about 'macho punks' not being at the demo? Choice is part of freedom, we have the choice to attend or not. Presence at a march does not equal support. Secondly, as I am fully aware of what goes on I know for a fact that many people did not get to the Conference Centre because they could not. They were stopped in different streets by the police. If you had any knowldege you would have known that. You were shouting in the face at the band members that you stole the microphone from. If you spoke to them instead of shouting at them you would have discovered that they attended the rally. After your annoyance when those band members shouted back at you, you jumped off the stage and bumped into surprise surprise, my SOBER partner. You then proceeded to shout in his face calling him some 'macho punk'. You would not stop! My partner told you to go away and you continued to shout at him right in his face. He put up his hand and gently pushed you to back off. Remember you were in his face anatagonistic or what? You then made out that his push was worse than it was. Around seven feet you claimed. Then you claimed he stamped on your face. Remember you were seven feet away. Anyone that knows Richie knows he has got small legs (not seven feet in size). Anyone who knows Richie knows he is broad and a stamp on your face in his boots would most certainly have resulted in severe injuries to you. I think you would still be lying there. But you know and I know and all the witnesses know you have made this up to sell your argument. Anyway after he was jumped by all your friends. They tried to push him down 60 stone stairs. Incidently, this was all witnessed, your not that good. The guys all threw him out with one guy shouting 'the next time I see you, your a dead man'. My partner has had injuries, which included, bleeding fingers nails, sore neck and cuts and bruises above his eye. You are out fighting against war and then you and your fellow mates attack a sober 43 year old family man who has been a member of the punk scene since you were no doubt in nappies.

Your interpretation of our Edinburgh punk scene shows your lack of knowldege and naivety. I personally grew up during the miners strike and the threat of nuclear war. Employment was high and families struggled. Many of us grew up in impoverished conditons. Punk was our way of dealing with the system. Lyrics were written by bands such as Crass and Subhumans that gave enough information to go and read more. Our lyrics are those which send out information to awaken the public. It may not lead to revolution but information is power. Alcohol is prevalent in all cultures not just the punk scene but then perhaps you have never enjoyed yourself from time to time. Many of the punks you describe are very intelligent and I am deeply offended by what you say about my friends. Many of these punks travel distances to see the bands. Many of these punks hold up full time employment. We all have a variety of ideologies within the punk movement. Please do not pigeon hole us as all being the same? What you have done is stereotype the drunk punk label. Did you know that there is a whole punk movement which is classed as 'straight edge'. meaning no drugs or alcohol? But then you do not know at all. You claimed this was an all male thing which it is not. There are many females in the punk scene. Also you mention 'white' punks when addressing being surrounded by these so called 'macho's. Is this an attempt to make out we do not accept other cultures. Sadly, this little one is wrong also. We are all antifacist. We are all welcoming on punks from all over the world and have them for many different gigs. Right now we have many Polish punks who are as much part of our family as any other punks.

You claim that we had this 'free for all'. Who stopped you going to te microphone? Who started the trouble? YOU!!! The reaction by our punks is that we want an end to any violence in the Forest Cafe. None of us want to be injured and if there is any chance of this we will just not go. You have tarred the reputation. If you want me to be part of the group to stop the boycott I demand that you now tell the real truth on this forum for all to see. People like you spoil all unity. Psychologically speaking, you have severe issues with men and should get this checked out!

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

 

 

Ok, I agree with most of what was said above, as I was there, not drinking as I had work early in the morning and saw what happenned as described on the last post. I'm not actually a punk either, nor a hippy, but most people would probably say I look like the latter.

I do want to mention a few things about the original post by 'a punk with a small p'. 

I think it is established from the comments above that the woman who took the microphone to yell at Bones, and Happy Spastics for not being at the demo (which they actually had been) was confrontational, in error and ultimately based on pre-conceived assumptions about the punks in the room, that were in this case wrong.

As we all know, treating a whole strata of people in a negative way based on the experience of a mere few is fascism.

Second thought: You mention that you were "...disgusted by the way that some of the men in the room conducted themselves" and refer to these men as "machos". In some ways I can understand this, as punk gigs in Edinburgh do tend to involve moshing, aggresive dancing etc. (as they have done for more than 30 years), but why you focus on 'men' rather than 'people' is strange, as punk women do dance aggresively too. 

Though I am female, I am very interested in the campaign for the men's liberation movement which is currently campaigning for equal rights regarding the provision of social services available to women, as well as to father's rights to their children after divorce. The fact is that there is NO provision of services for male rape victims, and very little public services for men with social issues (given that they make up 90% of the prison population, make up a ratio to women of 10:1 with regards to suicide rates in some areas of the UK, and are the overwhelming majority of sufferers of alcoholism, homelessness & drug addiction).

As response above reflects, it seems that you have apparant issues with men, and in light of International Men's Day last Thursday (which has only been recognised in the UK since 2004, as opposed to International Women's Day est. 1909), it seems to me that if you really want to 'smash patriarchy' maybe try to approach things in a non-sexist way. Men are as much a victim to it as we are.

 

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

You openly admit that my partner was nearly thrown down stone stairs and you stated 'rightly so'. Your article is very incriminating but not to my partner but to you and the microphone fascist! Do you realise you are a witness and this could be used in evidence! Did you think of that before you wrote it! Its easy to suss out where a computer is from these days! How peaceful are you? Yet you claim to be anti-war! What the hell do you think this is?  He did not hurt you in any way and was a victim of your men loathing! He was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time! You are antagonistic and confrontational and had no right shouting in his face! Do you realise that 6 people pushing one guy at force down 60 stairs is downright INSANE! You could have killed him. It is ASSAULT dear! His fingers were bleeding because he was holding on for his life.Who would want to spend any antiwar demo with an insane fascist trouble causing sexist.

You know for a fact he never stamped on your face!!!! When I find out who you are it will be taken further. Your accusations are serious and you are continuing to damage the Forrest Cafe reputation! Do us all favour and take yourself away from us all but first come on here and explain how he stamped on your face without moving from where he was standing when you threw yourself 7 foot!!! Your nothing more than a drama queen. There is no justification for what you caused! Your not welcome anywhere in my scene and I hope now everyone will see this and realise who is telling the truth.

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Wow, 'punk with a small p', what a load of bullshit. I've lost count of how many local, and not so local punk gigs I've been to and not once have I witnessed the kind of behaviour you have described. The people you have accused are lovely, intelligent human beings I am proud to call my friends. Richie would not harm a fly. However, everytime there is a gig at the Forest there is the SAME problem. There seems to be a pattern forming here.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

well it's hard to know where to start.

what seems clear is that accusing each other (these divisions are arbitrary: we want the same things though we look different and we are ALL fallible and capable of making mistakes) is getting us nowhere.

the behaviour of a few dictating the behaviour of the many? autocracy = fascism.

the lack of an event manager was a pretty big factor in the way the bands all ran over time, and expecting people to self-manage in that situation (when some are drinking) isn't always a good idea.

to the people that were physically hurt - i hope you're ok.

to the people who were disappointed or disheartened by the schisms and prisons of the mind that continue to divide us - keep heart.

x

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Now now, everyone. What is with all this 'you're a fascist', 'no, you're a fascist Ms microphone-fascist', etc.

Maybe we are all equally fascist.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Fascism

1. A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on centralized government, government control of business, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy.
2. By vague analogy, any system of strong autocracy or oligarchy usually to the extent of bending and breaking the law, race-baiting and violence against largely unarmed populations.
From wiktionary.

Fascist (plural fascists)

1. A member of a fascist party.
2. A proponent of fascism.
From wiktionary.

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Yeah! Its all very well making out there are two sides, two divisions. Who's fascist, whos not fascist! This man hating person caused trouble in which a guy (my partner)was nearly pushed to his death down 60 stone stairs. She also states 'rightly so'. She and the people who jumped my partner are wrong and must be brought to some kind of justice. We still need some kind of justice system were people who carry out intentional acts of violence are held resonsible. This is my point! This will not go away you understand! This guy is a father of children, non violent and was sober. He was in effect an innocent individual who made a mistake by visiting the Forrest Cafe. It was only his second time there. It was my first. We will not go back there!  I don't think some of you see the seriousness of this hitting home with you. If my partner had fell to his death, this would essentially be a murder charge. UNACCEPTABLE. She will be brought to justice and anyone who sides with her has taken leave of their senses!

She is also the one who is bringing the Forrest Cafe into disrepute. I don't care if the Forrest Cafe exists or not, I won't lose sleep. However, I am quite sure those that particpate and are quite peaceful people will not want to be associated with this type of vermin.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

Now now, everyone. What is with all this 'you're a fascist', 'no, you're a fascist Ms microphone-fascist', etc.

Maybe we are all equally fascist.

Fascist!! This is the only bit you could pull out of it? When a man was nearly killed!

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

well it's hard to know where to start.

what seems clear is that accusing each other (these divisions are arbitrary: we want the same things though we look different and we are ALL fallible and capable of making mistakes) is getting us nowhere.

the behaviour of a few dictating the behaviour of the many? autocracy = fascism.

the lack of an event manager was a pretty big factor in the way the bands all ran over time, and expecting people to self-manage in that situation (when some are drinking) isn't always a good idea.

to the people that were physically hurt - i hope you're ok.

to the people who were disappointed or disheartened by the schisms and prisons of the mind that continue to divide us - keep heart.

x

Where to start? How about letting us know exactly who this man hater is? So she can serve her justice. There is a big difference from making a mistake to intentionally try to kill someone! Lets put perspective on ths

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

What I will also add is to be taken very seriously. If you know this girl and or her whereabouts, I would like you to come forward. If not then it leaves me no alternative but to do it legally. its all very well having political ideologies and utopian ideas but as one friend said to me very recently. 'Life just is not like that'. We can't all run around doing what we want and assault each  other when we feel a tantrum coming on. If this all closes the Forrest Cafe then so be it! You have my word that this shall not be left alone. Human life means more than some building! This is my children's father! By hook or by crook this girl will be brought to justice! If you know her then do the right thing!

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

A man attacked 'rightly so' for being mistaken as someone who stamped on a woman's face.

Wrong place; wrong time.

Reminds me of Ian Tomlinson, only that the police in this case are some Forest volunteers.

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

whats with this 'safer spaces agreement' - dont remember signing that

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

Reminds me of Ian Tomlinson, only that the police in this case are some Forest volunteers.

 

you people are insane

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Reminds me of Ian Tomlinson, only that the police in this case are some Forest volunteers.

 

you people are insane

Only insane people are the thugs at Thr Forrest who tried to kill a guy

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

just outa interest, i was born of rape to an alcoholic mother on a council estate in north london. I have been vollunteering at the forest since it began. I continue to have no money but love forest . just outa interest.

"out of interest" is a statement that should preceed a question, not another statement.  Also, you're kind of proving my point by pointing out how hard your life has been yet you continue to give up your spare time for the Forest, which while it might be admirable, the "out of interest" 's are suggesting that you feel you're better than me because of it.

I would also like to point out that I used the term "in my experience", I did not declare my opinion as fact, only as an opinion based on my own experiences.  I don't doubt that there are volunteers in any and all sectors that do it for a genuine love of whatever it may be, but from what I have seen the bulk of these people are those I described in my original post.

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Reminds me of Ian Tomlinson, only that the police in this case are some Forest volunteers.

 

you people are insane

It is insane to attempt to kill someone.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

btw just wanted to mention to everyone that there's a punk gig tonight at Henry's Cellar Bar at half past 7.

Although I suppose I shouldn't recommend it because I'm sure it will just be another macho free for all where elitist punks have no respect for other people's safety and men behave like primal brutes.

:)

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Threats of going to the police arent going to get you anywhere.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Fabbri wrote:

Threats of going to the police arent going to get you anywhere.

I beg to differ, Its not threats it fact! So if it was a member of your family you would just leave it alone would you?

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

If you think the Forest Cafe isn't a friend of punks, then what makes you think the cops will be? Going to the cops wont solve anything, and threatening to go to the cops wont get you any sympathy with people who might try and see your point of view. I'm just trying to warn you.

Never trust a cop.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Fabbri wrote:

If you think the Forest Cafe isn't a friend of punks, then what makes you think the cops will be? Going to the cops wont solve anything, and threatening to go to the cops wont get you any sympathy with people who might try and see your point of view. I'm just trying to warn you.

Never trust a cop.

I don't want the sympathy of police. Its cool, I'm pretty confident the police would support me even still. No worries there. I want justice, I want that bitch to come forward and admit she lied! There's plenty people watching this and I believe that she is also reading this and perhaps contributing. If you want the Forrest to go down then carry on supporting her lies! You seem worried, I'm not! Truth is an amazing weapon!

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Fabbri wrote:

If you think the Forest Cafe isn't a friend of punks, then what makes you think the cops will be? Going to the cops wont solve anything, and threatening to go to the cops wont get you any sympathy with people who might try and see your point of view. I'm just trying to warn you.

Never trust a cop.

I don't want the sympathy of police. Its cool, I'm pretty confident the police would support me even still. No worries there. I want justice, I want that bitch to come forward and admit she lied! There's plenty people watching this and I believe that she is also reading this and perhaps contributing. If you want the Forrest to go down then carry on supporting her lies! You seem worried, I'm not! Truth is an amazing weapon!

So for the sake of peace come forward you manhater and admit your lies? You have already confessed to particpating in attempting to throw him down the stairs. Which could be classified as attempted murder. We have evidence he did not stamp on your face nor hurt you in anyway! Its all here in writing in your original article and oh, I saved copies too.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

There are lots of different versions of events. I sympathise with you, but my friends were hurt in that incident too. I was there when there was the scrap at the top of the stairs and no-one was trying to throw anyone down the steps. People were trying to get that man out of the room to calm things down and if he had simply gone down stairs so we could work out what was going on then it wouldn't of got so serious.

Oh, and there seems to be quite a lot of confusion about the Forest. None of the Forest staff or anyone representing the Forest were involved here.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Fabbri wrote:

There are lots of different versions of events. I sympathise with you, but my friends were hurt in that incident too. I was there when there was the scrap at the top of the stairs and no-one was trying to throw anyone down the steps. People were trying to get that man out of the room to calm things down and if he had simply gone down stairs so we could work out what was going on then it wouldn't of got so serious.

Oh, and there seems to be quite a lot of confusion about the Forest. None of the Forest staff or anyone representing the Forest were involved here.

What a shite version! She states in her article and I was there its my partner LOL. It wasn't a scrap it was him being assaulted! My story stands and I have many, many witnesses. Sorry, you can't change the events now. TOOO LATE FOR THAT

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Reminds me of Ian Tomlinson, only that the police in this case are some Forest volunteers.

 

you people are insane

It is insane to attempt to kill someone.

no, sorry, it's insane to try and belittle the death of an innocent man at the hands of the state by trying to equate it to what sounds like some fistycuffs in a cafe

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Don't belittle this, it is attempted murder

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

Don't belittle this, it is attempted murder

Two days I give you to publish on this site the name of the girl and her whereabouts. She is guilty and must take responsibility for her actions. She can also name the other 6 guys involved in assaulting my partner! The guy with the dreds, white T-shirt and nose piercing, got a full description of him. He shouted to my partner that he is 'a dead man' next time he sees my partner. Shouted it in front of everyone. TWO DAYS and this thing goes legal! It is a promise.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

No-one was trying to kill your partner. It wasn't attempted murder. If people are belittling it its because you are blowing it way out of proportion.

No-one's going to print anyones name or whereabouts.

Dreadlocks and piercings? Not going to get you anywhere I'm afraid.

You wouldn't be the first, or last, to go to the police to try and get someone for posting on Indymedia. Indymedia doesn't log IP addresses and theres no proof of who wrote anything on here. Theres nothing the police can do.

 

I can see you are obviously very angry about this, and this is something we all need to discuss. We shouldn't have this sort of infighting in the punk scene and its only by discussion that we'll sort it out. But threatening stuff is only going to make things worse.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Fabbri wrote:

No-one was trying to kill your partner. It wasn't attempted murder. If people are belittling it its because you are blowing it way out of proportion.

No-one's going to print anyones name or whereabouts.

Dreadlocks and piercings? Not going to get you anywhere I'm afraid.

You wouldn't be the first, or last, to go to the police to try and get someone for posting on Indymedia. Indymedia doesn't log IP addresses and theres no proof of who wrote anything on here. Theres nothing the police can do.

 

I can see you are obviously very angry about this, and this is something we all need to discuss. We shouldn't have this sort of infighting in the punk scene and its only by discussion that we'll sort it out. But threatening stuff is only going to make things worse.

 

Yeah dreadlocks and piercings are for your benefit but we know what he looks like. Since you were obviously there you are a witness. As for evidence I think you misunderstand the powers of the state! OK! Now here I go again , 6 guys pushing one guy down a 60 flight stone stairs is what exactly? Again you belittle it by claiming I am out of proportion. Damn right I am angry, I nearly lost my partner and my kids nearly lost their dad. I think you also believe your own hype that the police can't do (you) or the person for attempted murder

Who gives a shit about infighting. I have all my mates behind me on this. Again, the girl started it and needs to pay! There is also plenty information on here to work out who certain people are, funny that eh? Have a wee read back at it all. I think this is frightening you. Just because you will not print names doens't mean others wont. Worried?

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Some points:

  • why is this article on Indymedia?- it aint news, just unverifiable opinion.
  • so, some punks may have been violent - deal with them. Call the cops or if you don't like that, get a team and sort them out - arseholes are part of Real Life - get used to it. Maybe there's a reason why normal places have bouncers and cops to back them up. Unless you've got a gang of handy mates, you're gonna deal with drunk arseholes
  • as to the the punks, why would 'anti-right-wing' punks use MySpace anyway? MySpace is owned by arsehole in chief, Rupert Murdoch who aint exactly left wing. The ONLY difference between MySpace and EMI is that EMI gave bands money in return for making them money. RM gives punk bands fk-all.
  • So, some punks aint the 'revolutionaries' you think they are? Some of us learned that in the late 70s. Punks are still no different to 'normal' people. Just look at all the new electronic idiot boxes - My Space, Facebook etc and see 'punks' vegetating like the rest of the e-doped-up public who sit in front of X-Factor
  • punks, hippies, fitba fans... there's neds and arseholes in every scene. Stonehenge and other free festivals have been ruined by 'hippie' morons. It's human nature - Real Life
  • Are the Forest different? Well, it seems strange that anarchist would cooperate with a government 'work for dole' scheme and then sack the guy when he doesnt turn up one day
  • lastly, get a life, both sides.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:
  • why is this article on Indymedia?- it aint news, just unverifiable opinion.

It's filed under "Commentary". Could also have gone under "Culture".

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Can I just point out that the author of this post is in fact a man. I am not a man-hating woman - the conclusion that many here jumped to - but wanted to comment on patriarchy and machismo in supposedly left-wing scenes. I see these as big problems.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

''Violence can be seen as a tragic response to unmet needs and/or the perception/belief that an individual's or group's needs do not matter or matter "less" than another's; "justice" in this context can be seen as a restoration of human connection and a willingness to act on meeting everyone's needs; true and lasting peace comes from acting on the belief that all human needs (and the needs of the planet and other living beings) are inter-dependent and of value.''

Everyone has a different perception of events and in our anger we should not loose sight of the fact that everyone involved is a feeling, thinking, living human being. Let's not demonise each other for the sake of being 'right'. If people were hurt they should be looked after, if people did things they regret, let's talk about it and support each other. It is important to create an alternative way to deal with conflict than what is presented to us by the mainstream. Let's not mirror everything that is wrong with society.

''Martin Luther King, Jr., commented, "You can have no influence over those for whom you have underlying contempt." Radical transformation of society will take place in the context of activism and change that is free of moral judgment, contempt, enemy images, power-over and blame.'' - from the centre of non-violent communication

 

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:

Some points:

  • why is this article on Indymedia?- it aint news, just unverifiable opinion.
  • so, some punks may have been violent - deal with them. Call the cops or if you don't like that, get a team and sort them out - arseholes are part of Real Life - get used to it. Maybe there's a reason why normal places have bouncers and cops to back them up. Unless you've got a gang of handy mates, you're gonna deal with drunk arseholes
  • as to the the punks, why would 'anti-right-wing' punks use MySpace anyway? MySpace is owned by arsehole in chief, Rupert Murdoch who aint exactly left wing. The ONLY difference between MySpace and EMI is that EMI gave bands money in return for making them money. RM gives punk bands fk-all.
  • So, some punks aint the 'revolutionaries' you think they are? Some of us learned that in the late 70s. Punks are still no different to 'normal' people. Just look at all the new electronic idiot boxes - My Space, Facebook etc and see 'punks' vegetating like the rest of the e-doped-up public who sit in front of X-Factor
  • punks, hippies, fitba fans... there's neds and arseholes in every scene. Stonehenge and other free festivals have been ruined by 'hippie' morons. It's human nature - Real Life
  • Are the Forest different? Well, it seems strange that anarchist would cooperate with a government 'work for dole' scheme and then sack the guy when he doesnt turn up one day
  • lastly, get a life, both sides.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

This smells of a bash the oiks article. Theres always nonsense at the Forest when theres a punk night on, never anywhere else , kinda agree with the last poster, we're aw peace punks, the issue might lie with the Forest.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

To the crazy lady accusing people of attempted murder: Calm down. I was there all night, sober. I'd been at the demonstration all day and wanted to hang around and see the gig. I saw the incident in question and you are exaggerating a little ;) As for Forest Cafe staff being involved; they weren't. The "thugs at the Forest Cafe" who you claim assaulted your husband were actually just other punters at the gig. Nothing to do with the Forest at all. Also, going to the Police? Hah. I was jumped and beaten up by a gang of neds a few weeks ago and ended up in hospital. Even though I gave good descriptions of several of my attackers and there were several CCTV cameras that would have filmed the incident, the police showed no interest whatsoever towards attempting to apprehend those who did it.

Re: Punk is Dead! (In Edinburgh) Reflections on a night with the Edinburgh Punk scene

Anonymous wrote:To the crazy lady accusing people of attempted murder: Calm down. I was there all night, sober. I'd been at the demonstration all day and wanted to hang around and see the gig. I saw the incident in question and you are exaggerating a little ;) As for Forest Cafe staff being involved; they weren't. The "thugs at the Forest Cafe" who you claim assaulted your husband were actually just other punters at the gig. Nothing to do with the Forest at all. Also, going to the Police? Hah. I was jumped and beaten up by a gang of neds a few weeks ago and ended up in hospital. Even though I gave good descriptions of several of my attackers and there were several CCTV cameras that would have filmed the incident, the police showed no interest whatsoever towards attempting to apprehend those who did it.

EH? Ok! maybe not two days, maybe one. Take whatever side you like? It doesn't matter to me. We have the truth! You are all getting angry and defensive because you know I am right. Call me whatever names 'crazy lady' wooh!!! Im scared! Dont also attempt to separate the Forrest from that night. I saw my husbands injuries. Wooh! You are such a brave boy putting up with getting a kicking off neds! Maybe you insulted them? I do have descriptions of the attackers. We know what you look like we also have witnesses. After all the girl was shouting in several faces. Its quite alright. OH! yeah don't talk crap about that article being from a man. You are all scared and trying to back track, covering up stories. You will stop at nothing but admit that my partner was assaulted in the Forrest cafe. If we don't get the names The Forrest will be dragged down too. I have an ace up my slave, yep good old fashined mobile phones with good picture quality. The new Samsung which can pan in on faces! Got ya baby!

Oh! incidentally, the article fails to mention the exact loaction where my partner alledgedly stamped on the girls face. Was it at the stage side or was it at the back. Times ticking, whats the answer, since you were all there. Quickie response please?

Syndicate

Syndicate content Features

Syndicate content Newswire