I've planned for yonks to be involved in a campaign for YES to Scottish independence. Doing that stuff might be anathema to many anarchists. [In my opinion anarchists who are opposed to 'the state' on principle are kidding themselves. What would a federation of people's assemblies (or some other very democratic formulation) be but a state. A grass-roots democratic state but still a state.]

It makes sense to work with groups like SNP and SSP to get scotland out of this bloody union. I have no illusions about the SNP -- if we get an independent Scotland the SNP will be our pro-business, 'centre-right', tartan tories.

I don't believe in the black and white classification of states as 'democratic' and 'undemocratic'. All these systems offer people different and differently limited avenues of political expression. An independent Scotland would give us the opportunity to reverse the ongoing destruction of the welfare state. Withdrawal from NATO would be a possiblity. Maybe we could get nuclear weapons out of Scotland.

Not revolution but it beats the hell out of stitching your own wounds for lack of free healthcare.

TomM wrote:

It makes sense to work with groups like SNP and SSP to get scotland out of this bloody union. I have no illusions about the SNP -- if we get an independent Scotland the SNP will be our pro-business, 'centre-right', tartan tories.

I don't believe in the black and white classification of states as 'democratic' and 'undemocratic'. All these systems offer people different and differently limited avenues of political expression. An independent Scotland would give us the opportunity to reverse the ongoing destruction of the welfare state. Withdrawal from NATO would be a possiblity. Maybe we could get nuclear weapons out of Scotland.

Not revolution but it beats the hell out of stitching your own wounds for lack of free healthcare.

I am / was sympathetic to this argument, now I'm just indifferent. As far as the tension between nationalist / unionist or Holyrood / Westminster is bringing us concrete benefits like free personal care for the elderly, I'm happy to see it continue.

But I think that it's the competition between Labour & the SNP (for the ignored Labour "heartlands") that is the factor that's driving the offering of concrete gains, not that there's anything more progressive about one team or the other.

I see the formation of a new / replacement nationalist elite and am convinced that once there's no longer a need for the SNP to try and woo lefties, certain policies will be dropped. (Specifically I'm thinking Nato & Trident, but the social gains would also suddenly be "too expensive" for us as well.)

So it's useful if such a campaign exists, but I'm buggered if I'll lift a finger to help it :)

CH wrote:

TomM wrote:

It makes sense to work with groups like SNP and SSP to get scotland out of this bloody union. I have no illusions about the SNP -- if we get an independent Scotland the SNP will be our pro-business, 'centre-right', tartan tories.

I don't believe in the black and white classification of states as 'democratic' and 'undemocratic'. All these systems offer people different and differently limited avenues of political expression. An independent Scotland would give us the opportunity to reverse the ongoing destruction of the welfare state. Withdrawal from NATO would be a possiblity. Maybe we could get nuclear weapons out of Scotland.

Not revolution but it beats the hell out of stitching your own wounds for lack of free healthcare.

I am / was sympathetic to this argument, now I'm just indifferent. As far as the tension between nationalist / unionist or Holyrood / Westminster is bringing us concrete benefits like free personal care for the elderly, I'm happy to see it continue.

But I think that it's the competition between Labour & the SNP (for the ignored Labour "heartlands") that is the factor that's driving the offering of concrete gains, not that there's anything more progressive about one team or the other.

I see the formation of a new / replacement nationalist elite and am convinced that once there's no longer a need for the SNP to try and woo lefties, certain policies will be dropped. (Specifically I'm thinking Nato & Trident, but the social gains would also suddenly be "too expensive" for us as well.)

So it's useful if such a campaign exists, but I'm buggered if I'll lift a finger to help it :)

 

CH - are you aware of the history of the nationalist movement in relatiuon to Trident? It's really not a matter of people 'wooing lefties'. I bet you £10 you aren't from here and you don't have a clue about the political history of these movements.

It's not about the SNP v Labour. It's about whether you want to oppose the British State and what it represents.

Anonymous wrote:

CH - are you aware of the history of the nationalist movement in relatiuon to Trident? It's really not a matter of people 'wooing lefties'. I bet you £10 you aren't from here and you don't have a clue about the political history of these movements.

It's not about the SNP v Labour. It's about whether you want to oppose the British State and what it represents.

It represents the same as any other state does: the interests of its economic and political ruling class. Their interests are not my interests.

I'm well aware that the SNP have a long history of anti-Trident / Polaris activism. I don't believe that would mean a thing in the face of pressure from military and economic powers. Watch for it being the SNP's "Clause 4" moment in any UK-breakup negotiations.

As for this wee comment: "I bet you £10 you aren't from here," that's really childish. You didn't get the memo about Scots nationalism being officially inclusive & progressive or what?

Stick to talking politics without attempting to drag personalities in. This isn't the Scotsman comment pages.

Anybody who does not want to help the Independence movement is helping the British state. If Scotland gains economic independence from England, Northern Ireland and Wales we will be one step closer to Anarchism.

Those who fight for Independence and decentralisation deserve to be celebrated. If Scotland is to have a more democratic system, it must have independence, it is as simple as that. I am not driven by nationalism, nor am I driven by jingoism, I just want to see a better democracy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anybody who does not want to help the Independence movement is helping the British state.

"If you're not with us you're against us". Yeah, and by holding a driving licence I'm complicit in environmental destruction; by eating cheese I'm an animal abuser and depending on where I shop I'm responsible for all that chain's abuse of workers as well.

When you discover the secret of infinite hours in the day, then that moralistic argument might work for me. I've said why I don't see "Independence" as a priority for me to work on.

Anonymous wrote:

If Scotland gains economic independence from England, Northern Ireland and Wales we will be one step closer to Anarchism.

I'd like you set out your reasoning behind this, though.

I can see it being (potentially) more democratic, maybe more egalitarian. But no more than that. There's no continuity between that form of state and (what Tom calls) the anarchist one. There might be other benefits that make it worth fighting for but it's not an end in itself.

Besides, "economic independence" has always been a contradiction as far as I'm concerned - economics / trade of whatever form is an expression of interdependence.

CH wrote:

I can see it being (potentially) more democratic, maybe more egalitarian. But no more than that. There's no continuity between that form of state and (what Tom calls) the anarchist one. There might be other benefits that make it worth fighting for but it's not an end in itself.

Greater democracy is always an end in itself.

CH its not about the SNP's history of anti-Trident beacuse its not about party politics its about a wider movement for self-determination so its not about a single party ditching a single policy.

I take it from the body-swerve about not being frpom here that your, er, not from here? I didnt realise that Indymedia has a single prescribed ideology ie anarchism, I thought it was a platform for the left, progressive forces and the anti-capitalist movement to combine in participatory media? If so, surely a space for a republican view?

The relationship between republican and anarchist forces is long and fruitful not just in Scotland but throughout Europe.

Anonymous wrote:

CH its not about the SNP's history of anti-Trident beacuse its not about party politics its about a wider movement for self-determination so its not about a single party ditching a single policy.

I take it from the body-swerve about not being frpom here that your, er, not from here? I didnt realise that Indymedia has a single prescribed ideology ie anarchism, I thought it was a platform for the left, progressive forces and the anti-capitalist movement to combine in participatory media? If so, surely a space for a republican view?

The relationship between republican and anarchist forces is long and fruitful not just in Scotland but throughout Europe.

• I didn't body-swerve anything. It's none of your fucking business where I'm "from", how long I've stayed in any particular place or what my DNA looks like. It would tell you nothing about my opinions.
• Nobody's prescribing an ideology. Clearly, since TomM, whose opinions I respect, is disagreeing with me also.
• No-one is denying you space for a view. I've given my point of view. You're giving yours, while remaining anonymous. Feel free to create an account and combine in participatory media.

TomM wrote:

CH wrote:

I can see it being (potentially) more democratic, maybe more egalitarian. But no more than that. There's no continuity between that form of state and (what Tom calls) the anarchist one. There might be other benefits that make it worth fighting for but it's not an end in itself.

Greater democracy is always an end in itself.

Fair point. I was referring to "Independence" but. And I'm not convinced the 2 are the same thing.

CH wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CH its not about the SNP's history of anti-Trident beacuse its not about party politics its about a wider movement for self-determination so its not about a single party ditching a single policy.

I take it from the body-swerve about not being frpom here that your, er, not from here? I didnt realise that Indymedia has a single prescribed ideology ie anarchism, I thought it was a platform for the left, progressive forces and the anti-capitalist movement to combine in participatory media? If so, surely a space for a republican view?

The relationship between republican and anarchist forces is long and fruitful not just in Scotland but throughout Europe.

• I didn't body-swerve anything. It's none of your fucking business where I'm "from", how long I've stayed in any particular place or what my DNA looks like. It would tell you nothing about my opinions.
• Nobody's prescribing an ideology. Clearly, since TomM, whose opinions I respect, is disagreeing with me also.
• No-one is denying you space for a view. I've given my point of view. You're giving yours, while remaining anonymous. Feel free to create an account and combine in participatory media.

Its not about where your from, its about whether you have any awareness of the political culture your part of. Clearly if you think the SNP is going to ditch its commitment to opposing Trident you don't. You could have just said "Look I'm not from here your right I don't really know that much about the political history of the place I'm now living in".

I don't care where your from. I care about whether your political arguments make any sense in a debate. There's no need to start swearing and bneing aggressive. I'll gladly set up an account, thanks for the offer.