Where did the event happen? Glasgow, Edinburgh?

Infantile. Fighting violence with violenece, well done. Get off your arses and get involved in the democracy we live in. Actions like this prompt legislation that stops people from attacking organisations, not legislation that stops organisations from profiting by helping people attack each other.

Selex are based in North Edinburgh. "Fighting violence with violenece(sic), well done." Calling a few smashed windows violence is an insult to anyone who has experienced violence or the terror that is made possible by disgusting firms like Selex. Oh and by the way, what democracy? Representative "democracy" is hardly democratic. How can putting a tick in a box every few years be called in any way inclusive. By voting in Governmental elections you give those corrupt scum at Holyrood and Westminster your permission to carry out their wars and their destruction of our communities and our world. Selex deserves whatever it gets.

Red and Anarchist Action Network Attacks USAF Recruiting Office In Rockville, MD, U$A "July 10th, 2007 - In an attempt to discover how a bunch of murdering cowards like the US Air Force enjoy finding themselves on the other end of some flying projectiles for a change, at around 3:00 AM this morning an autonomous cell of the Red & Anarchist Action Network (RAAN) used bricks and other common household items to smash the shit out of the Air Force recruiting center in Rockville, Maryland." http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/139812/index.php

Well done. If more people actually took part in action instead of believing politicians will get us out of any mess the world would be a better place. Keep up the good work and stay safe FTWC!

"Selex deserves whatever it gets." Then I'm sure when the cops beat your ass, they can say the same thing. Utilizing violence to further your means grants the state the moral right to also utilize violence to further their means. Bravo, good job. The problem you have with democracy, is that the majority doesn't share your views.

"Then I'm sure when the cops beat your ass, they can say the same thing. Utilizing violence to further your means grants the state the moral right to also utilize violence to further their means." How the bleedin' hell is smashing a few windows violence? Are you some wing nut pacifist (no offence to non-wing nut pacifists) who beliebes that if we all just ask the state nicely to stop doing bad things then it will? You poor deluded fool. Now whilst I do not believe that smashing windows is about to bring about the revolutionary change that is needed in this world your comments are facile and display the worst kind of liberal thinking. Maybe a few well written letters to the Guardian or the Independant will stop the nasty corporations from exploiting and dehumanising us and making profit from bloodshed and war. Somehow I don't think so. The state has always had the monopoly on violence and it always will have until it is done away with. There can be no reforms that willmake any change of value in this world. If you believe that the state needs an excuse to flex its muscles and use it's force against the populace you have a very short memory.

"How the bleedin' hell is smashing a few windows violence? " Because I know what the word "violence" means. You've got access to a dictionary, feel free to look up the word. Thanks for calling me a fool. I see rocks flying through the air is a symptom of a problem, not a cure. You’ve got a vision. If you think the state needs doing away with then you have the opportunity today, tomorrow and every day till the next set of elections to go out into the world and state your case, form groups and alliances that build on your vision, give people the opportunity to support and develop your ideas. When time to vote comes along you or other like-minded people can stand for election giving the people of this country the opportunity to choose your way rather than the current same-old-same-old state. We’ve all got the potential to change the world, changing something that big & complex takes time and a hell of a lot of effort - is your strength of conviction strong enough? If you don’t try you’ll never know what you’re capable of, what change you can effect in other people and the world they live in. If current society is diseased we can choose to be part of the cure, or we can choose to be a symptom of it. So, rocks – symptom or cure?

^The consistent equating of damaged property with political violence is wrong on many levels. Those unable to differentiate between a broken leg and a broken window should probably not be in this movement at all (and hopefully you aren't in medical school either). You simultaneously raise property to the level of human beings, while also devaluing human life and limb to the level of inanimate objects. Thus a cop breaking someone's skull open with a baton becomes an equitable response to that person breaking a window -- do you really believe in the validity of this equation? More to the point, however, is what this overall pacifist mentality towards "property violence" represents in a broader sense: most of the full-fledged pacifists in our movement are, quite simply, white middle- or upper-class activists from Western nations. While of course their are occasional exceptions, this is generally true. It is easy to denounce all property damage and violent resistance in general, when you have never been in a situation where your life is actually threatened daily by state oppression. The de-legitimizing of anything other than non-violent peaceful resistance is inherently classist and racist to its very core, not to mention inhumane and childishly naive and simplistic. To what extent was it immoral and illegitimate for American Indians to resist colonization in ways other than having sit-ins? How immoral and illegitimate was it when Jews in Warsaw decided that symbolic non-violent demonstrations would not have been very effective against invading Nazis? Or let's make it more personal -- how immoral and illegitimate would it be for your mother or sister to violently resist an attempted rape? Those who take an absolutist position in favor of pacifism as the sole legitimate means of resistance must adhere to that philosophy consistently even in the above examples, not just when it's politically expedient to denounce broken windows because a segment of progressive-liberals in our movement get weak knees when the movement takes positions or actions that might insinuate a threat to the typical class privilege enjoyed by those progressive-liberal activists. As a professional or business-owner, there are times when quite suddenly but predictably, those activists' interests are clearly more in common with and represented by the state and corporate power, and in such instances the activists will turn and cannibalize anyone in the movement who "steps out of line". Every time you speak out to denounce "property violence" or "fighting violence with violence", you shamefully spit on the graves of people all around this world who have had to fight against the worst kinds of oppression and fascism, who have literally fought to prevent their own genocide, and for whom self-serving platitudes from comfortable white progressives far removed from the true realities of real resistance mean nothing.

"When time to vote comes along you or other like-minded people can stand for election giving the people of this country the opportunity to choose your way rather than the current same-old-same-old state" To quote a cliche "If voting changed anything it would be illegal". I personally do not believe that any form of meaqningful political activity cannot take place in the parlimentary arena. Representative democracy is no true democracy. By giving another person carte blanche to act on your behalf you dis-empower yourself. I have no desire to enter the fetid world of parlimentary politics. Real life and therefore real politics ttakes place on the street, in the home and on the shop floor. NOT in the debating chambers of power and parliment. Oh and if I didn't make it quite clear in my first post I wish to see the removal of the state not the replacement of it.

Just a quick point. Just because someone smashes windows why do you think that means they don't form groups and put their point across. This idea we have to stick to one tactic is rediculous.

"This idea we have to stick to one tactic is rediculous." True but smashing windows is a bit like propaganda by the deed but without all the fun assasination bits. :-) That was a joke by the way, entertainment purposes only kiddies!

If you feel so strongly why don't you do something CONSTRUCTIVE to put your point across? Smashing windows is futile/infantile and reflects against the articulate members of your organisation. You are coming across as a bunch of sponging wasters, rather than an articulate organisation with valid points to express (and as such, dismissed and alienated by the general public as 'wasters') Acting like petulant children will get you nowhere....

So none of you can come up with a peaceful, constructive way around the problem? You are just as bad as any Government....

This is a very good debate and one we need to have, particularly just now when our legitimate and non violent protests are meeting with increased state violence and repression. We live in an economy that is built on blood, many have a little stake in this, we need to raise awareness of this fact. We have a moral responsibility which is bigger than any single government or the beliefs of any group of activists either non or pro violence. The single important factor is that we act to stop the carnage. It is doing nothing that is completely unaceptable here.

Hmm, my first reponse is that its no bad thing for employees of an arms company to have first hand experience of what its like to have a bit of property damage going on in their own lives. If it makes them uncomfortable, then maybe they should realise that they are in the wrong business. As to finding peaceful and constructive ways to combat the arms industry, there are certainly camapigns that have had successes, these include the campaign to get Reed Elsevier to ditch DSEi, conducted by people such as professionals who threatened to boycott other Reed Elsevier publications. Similarly, the recently announced scrapping of DESO seems to be a victory for those who camapigned against it, although it may well reappear as a privatised company with even fewer safeguards.Likewise it is unlikely that DSEi will stop dealing in death. However, if all the critics of direct action and property damage can do is get upset by little acts of property damage, then its about time they put their anger into sorting out the major damage that arms companies deal in. By all means suggest "peaceful, constructive way(s) around the problem" but until the carnage of arms companies has stopped don't expect everyone to be docile and ineffectual cos you don't like the sound of smashing glass. Until the arms trade stops there is room for a diversity of tactics.

'Diversity of tactics' Hmmm. (For an organisation dedicated to peace, it sounds very Militaristic. What next? 'Covert Operations'?) Do you really think your actions will make any difference? Of course not! If you really want to make a stand why not take your protest to the Scottish Parliament? Your organisation is obviously too 'docile' and 'ineffectual' to making a REAL statement for what you believe in. If you're not brave enough to show your faces and stand up for what you believe in, within the framework of the system of Government the rest of this Country accepts, you'll just remain a laughing stock as petty vandals.... I wholeheartedly agree with your right to express your viewpoints. I also wholeheartedly reject and abhore your methods... You're obviously no better than the people you are objecting about.

"You're obviously no better than the people you are objecting about." Yes quite! Only some of choose to put energy into fighting an industry that exists to kill, and others choose to sell their sould to contribute to the killing that industry does. And in the same way placards aint gonna stop them, you aint gonna stop us. If you want to support the death industry because you don't like broken windows, you're in a Catch 22. Have a nice conundrum.

"within the framework of the system of Government the rest of this Country accepts" The voting figures do not bear this out. Acceptance of something even by a majority does not necessarily make it morally right The rejection of a war even by a majority of the population does not mean that the government will not wage war, they lied in order to manipulate public opinion and parliament into accepting war. We now have many anti war MSP's there have been many petitions to parliament, many open and accountable protests, including the heroic campaign by Brian Haw who suffered sustained police intimidation under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act "And the war drags on"

Yes I agree the Country was misled by the Government in the case of the Iraq war. However, the role of companies in the defence industries is also that, defence. If your views predominated 60 years ago, we'd all be speaking German, building more Gas Chambers... NO CONUNDRUM THERE... You have freedom of speech purely because of companies like SELEX, whether you like it or not. History is a bummer to 'radicals', people forget the sacrifices for freedom of speech so quickly....(Oooh, not my generation, I don't care!) Upper/Middle class, white inadequates spurned by society because they have no meaningful role to play (or have enough money to be 'radicals' because 'Mummy and Daddy' will support them.) is, basically, disgusting. Changing the 'system' has to come from an acceptance of the 'rules'. Throwing the 'Dummy out of the pram' and forcing issues, gets everyone nowhere. Look at Northern Ireland. Look at the USSR. (Sorted by radicals? - NOT AT ALL. sorted by the SYSTEM.) Stop playing 'freedom fighter' take the Che Gavara posters down, take off the black t-shirts and khaki jackets and start contributing positively to society... Some of you seem very articulate and would be great public speakers which COULD make a difference. I have no doubt of that. Channeling your energies into petty vandalism is such a waste...Are you so nieve that you can't come up with something better than that? I know I can.... However...Smashing windows - Hmmm, Historical perspective..(We learn fron history, don't we?...) Ohhh, yes! Crystalnacht!! NAZI extremism! Well done! you've put yourselves into a proper historical context! Well done!!

Sorry, but you are just being silly now! Randon smashing of windows at a death factories premises is hardly the same as an orchestrated campaign of attacking premises because of the ethnicity of their occupiers! "proper historical context? " Its more like you've created a proper hysterical context. muppet!

This action is fantastic news and I am really glad to hear about it. All governments and businesses which propagate war need to be attacked hard. All those people who disrespect actions like this are apologists for war and terror. Democracy is a sham and is used to keep people docile and ignorant. Well done to everyone involved, this is very inspiring to me.

While I sympathise with FTWC's aims, they are rather isolationist and elitest. Mass mobilisations are much more effective that small scale acts of direct action. That being said they're still due a well done for keeping the glaziers of Edinburgh in work. As for it being violent. There is a huge difference between violence against property and violence against the person.

Why don't you smash the windows during normal office hours instead of 5am or are you too busy signing on !

The usual nonsense about property damage=violence, direct action= elitist. Look at the inspiring actions of the raytheon 9 in derry or the smash edo campaign in Brighton and see how smashing windows can be part of a legitimate and effective campaign against the arms trade. Emily pankhust smashed windows of the at the war office and got the same outraged liberal reaction at the time. Now there are public transport corporation buses named after her. FTWC are not cynically trying to get themselves elected to some token parliament, but expressing a justified rage against the war machine . All power to them, whoever they are...

Nice one people. Fuck the liberal poseurs and trolls; the former ( well fed dickheads )who want the staus-quo and play at change.e.g NGO jobsworth?

people find it a bit to easy to sit on their arses and criticise other peoples actions. those windows deserved to be smashed and just cos the building is fucking ugly but for the political reason the FTWC did it for. Property damage hurts corporations, look at the ALF and the ELF. They refuse to attack people and go for property to slow down corporations in their actions or to seriously economically damage them. Smashing windows is on a different scale but it's achievable by everyone. More people should engage in this behaviour. Fuck the liberals

The democracy you are so derisory of is the same one that pays your family's gyro and will protect you under its laws when you are hopefully caught. Its sad, but I believe true, that the Hussein clan would certainly know how to deal with you the "proper" way (you and your entire family if even a fraction of the reports are true). I believe he had a particular dislike for critical articulate opposition or indeed anybody that put in his windows (or was that Pol Pot - does the perpetrator matter - you get the idea Democracay is good, nobody claims its perfect).

What, Pol Pot put in Saddam Hussein's windows ? That's the only news worthy item amongst this crap

I notice you convieniently forgot to criticise one of the posters comments about speaking German... You people are all the same. Ignore the hard fact that the only reason you have the chance to speak freely is from the sacrifice of others. You have no hesitation to claim benefits, housing, and NHS treatment without actually contributing positively to society. You wouldn't have those rights if it wasn't for the MILITARY action of this country 60 years ago. If you don't agree with the system and actually want to harm it, then it's quite simple, leave. (We REALLY don't want you. Honest! Your a useless burden we can do without.) It's pretty arrogant to assume that you hold a flag up, representing the true feelings of the majority. You don't. I'd bet that the majority of you are mid 20's early 30's Semi-intelligent, but unfortunately, basically unemployable because you did (or dropped out of, more likely) courses that were 'easy' (social sciences, arts, media, etc). So with nothing better to contribute, you become 'activists' with a 'Purpose'. Is this your way of justifying your existance? (I wonder if I'll get a reply to this at 7am, when I'm at my work? I doubt it!)Be inspired! Re-train, get a job and a get a life....

Now now that's not very democratic, you can't say that we don't want them because I'm one of we. I vote for FTWC to stay and carry on their smashing work. Stale, mate. Presumably if gas chambers did open around the country, the correct response would be to organise rallies against them and anyone trying to shut them down would be a naughty elitist dole scum. No it wouldn't would it! Oops. Anyway it's not a fair comparison because gas chambers kill local people whereas arms companies have much more chance of killing people further away who aren't really human. CARRY ON

I don't think property destruction can be equalized with any violence, particularily if it is violence against people and so on. Windows don't have feelings, and a company doesn't feel any pain either. The problem seems more that in this society companies can do whatever they want without ever being held accountable. The libel laws just prevents any public criticisms of private companies, and it seems difficult enough to be able to investigate companies ethical disregards apart when the state looks into tax evations. If smashing windows is a better way of holding anybody accountable in this company for its policies is doubtfull; however, we live in a pretty violent society anyways. Otherwise nobody would believe or talk to Bush and hang out with him, but for the nuclear weapons and the strongest and most expensive and professional army on Earth he has got.

How many of you 'activists' have a mortgage? (or could afford one these days, for that matter?) How many of you have kids to feed? Wouldn't you like a well paid job and provide a decent standard of living for your children? Most of the people working in the likes of SELEX would love to work elsewhere, in a different industry, unfortunately the opportunity to do that has dissolved in recent years. (Especially in Scotland. Remember the Silicon Glen?) Unfortunately, with the 'Global Economy' it's cheaper to hire people from China than Britain. (Let the Brits come up with the ideas, then exploit it with cheap labour elsewhere. Fat cats win.) You want the employees to leave SELEX? Fine, help come up with an alternative, instead of acting like spoilt brats. You probably won't get an objection from the the majority of the employees.... It's easy to be a radical when you've no REAL responsibilities..

hey,about this smashing windows malarkey, im pretty sure i recall this tactic being adopted during the womens lib movement........long before the fucking nazis or any of you liberal closet case hitler's

This debate has reminded me how a fringe of self righteous radicals can give the rest of us a bad name. The internet is ace for many reasons but it also gives succour to deconstructive loonies. You’ve got tremendous resources at your fingertips and instead of using them constructively you’re _throwing rocks_ FFS! What does that make us look like? No wonder the man on the street with no investment in the current world order crosses the road rather than getting involved with us.

why not, instead of putting down others efforts and making comments which help no-one,give these people an example of the resources available to them and/or offer constructive advice on alternative tactics,help each other out,work together.....simple really,and if anyone who enjoys putting others down cant give a better alternative,leave the rock throwers to it,Also we are all independent in our actions no-one is forcing you to associate with these "violent self rigteous rock throwers" hey you could even form a radical flower painting network!!

Sigh. I've just finnished reading all these comments and to be honest I've forgot about the issue because I'm sickened by the insults being slung by either side, some of which reads like the Sun letters page. Everyone in the world is entitled to an opinion regardless of 'class', race or pacifist belief and if this forum genuinely is the 'articulate' representation of activism in Scotland/UK then I'm rappidly becoming a nihilist.

"why not, instead of putting down others efforts and making comments which help no-one,give these people an example of the resources available to them and/or offer constructive advice on alternative tactics," Several of the comments have; democracy. Looks like it's falling on deaf ears though :(

Get a job you bunch of unwashed pikeys

I concur!!!

My what a balanced and well informed view point! So obviously well researched and not at all full of inaccuracies and hyperbole. Why don't you all do the world and indeed the nation a favour... Get off your arses, get a job and start making a positive contribution to society!

Activists my arse...did your mothers ever tell you that it's dangerous to throw stones at windows?? This "attack" has all the attributes of a half pissed, dropped kebab, "I've just got a catapult for my birthday, give me something to shoot at, but not a bird because they're too cute and move too bloody fast but LOOK....it's big, shiney and doesn't move too fast, surely I can hit that...." Fannies.....get a job that means something and not just keeping the local glazier in work. Or is he your cousin???

Ok, I agree with a lot of what is said here and I work for the company that was attacked. However, I think some of you should be enlightened to some other aspects. The company based in edinburgh is primarily a RADAR company. The main output from this company is Survaillance Radar. Those radar's used in the Air sea Rescue helicopters to help save peoples lives who are lost at sea. Bad Radar..... Radar is mainly used to help a aircraft fly safely. So it doesn't bump into other aircraft or buildings. They use it in big planes too you know. But back to the conundrum of war and all things violent. You see there are some major problems here. War or the threat of war is actually one of the biggest reasons that the human race has expanded its horizons. Most large leaps in technology have happened because of War. The first computers were invented to do two things, one crack codes two to figure out balistics for more accurate shooting and bombing. War has helped medical science and navigation. The radar was invented by the UK so that they could see the enemy approaching. I understand that people say War is bad. Unfortunatly it also has a somewhat positive component. It helps keep our overcrowded population down. It highlights racial stupidity and religious nutcases for what they are. Yes the world would be a better place without war. There is just one problem. As the attack above has already shown, even for a peacful motivation its in our human nature to attack. To kill. Thats why we have pointy sharp teeth. Thats why our eye's are on the front of our heads. We are hunter gatherer's. Genetic killers and there is no getting away from what you are. Its a bugger but thats it.

fair play it may be instinctive to humans to kill,form higherarchy,and generaly screw each other over in the name of "surivival of the fittest" but hey were not fuckin savages our ingelagence is far superiour to our instinct.....in most cases anyway,why cant you people just accept that property desruction can be extremely effective,i beleive anyone who disagrees is either an armchair fuckwit, an ineffective peacenic, or simply sent theyr letter to the metro to the wrong adress,why dont you cunts contribute something to society other than your twisted thatcherite view,there anre more constuctive ways to contribute to your community than get a job,get married,buy a house & have some kids,i bet you vote Labour!

FFS, why don't the lot of you greasy, pikey halfwits get a life thats worth living. If not then go back back to the slimey rock you's crawled out from.

I think you twats attacked the wrong company. Don't you know the New Weapon of Mass Destruction is the Jeep Cherokee !!

Anymore shite about Selex being warmongers and we shall seek you out like dogs and fire an ICB through your bathromm window and up your arse because that's how good our radar systems are......think about it whilst you're having a crap reading your copy of "I want to be a Martyr". Taking this seriously?? NOT. I got my arse kicked for breaking windows as a kid, it's easy. Try putting your heads together, make a half-wit, and try to explain how smashing windows will save the lives of the people in war stricken countires?????

i love being a greasy pikey halfwit who lives under a rock.....as long as i can avoid being as narrow minded as you ill do anything

you do realise that selex dont develop weapons dont you...?

"I work for the company that was attacked ... War is bad. ...also has a somewhat positive component. ... overcrowded population ... racial stupidity and religious nutcases ... We are hunter gatherer's. Genetic killers ... no getting away from what you are" I guess if you take such a nihilistic view then it helps you get up every day to work for killers. You aren't doing much for your bosses' PR though. If all we are is genetic killers imprisoned by biology, how do you explain your lust for a mortgage and contempt for people "living under rocks"? Can't have it both ways. Take the lame evolutionary psychology away and admit that you just don't give a fuck that you make money from the deaths of people with different colour skin.