These suv drivers are to be congratulated. The more excessive their fuel consumption, the quicker the collapse will come. EAT YOUR DAHL INSTEAD OF WASTING IT ON THESE HEROES PLEASE YOU IDIOTS!

The above post is authored by one of the two members of the the absurd group, the 'anti-farming alliance', merely to provoke a fuss. Anyone who seriously believes that we should burn more fossil fuels so that there is runaway climate change, causing the deaths of billions of people is obviously mad, and a very shit person.

"The above post is authored by one of the two members of the the absurd group, the 'anti-farming alliance', merely to provoke a fuss." Still identifying posters you don't agree with online eh ? How do you do that when you claim not to have access to their IP's ? Seriously you little wanker, why shouldn't I treat you like every other police grass in the movement when you abuse your power daily ? Why is only your right to criticise anonymously respected ? Moronic fakers have turned IMScotland into the Makhno&MI5 show, and this is to be regretted.

Leave it out Danny. Its pretty easy to work out who posts what. If you want to really be annonymous when posting, don't post straight after an article where youve identified yourself with the same message and style. Its not rocket science. The same way that people know you've posted even when it says anonymous. No-one needs to be an informer on you anyway. You came on IMC bragging about having access to run-ways and asking people to contact you if they want information. Stop being such an idiot.

Look, its easy to work out - they are the only two people in edinburgh who espouse the primitivist line of '6 billion people ought to die, so we can live in the iron age' and they are both in this stupid group 'The Anti-Farming Alliance' And the above comment appeared shortly after the article written by the absurd group AFA, and had exactly the same ideological position and way of saying things. its not difficult to work out

Danny who are u? never seen u about. apart From paranoid nonsense on here.

sure Danny, post away about who you reckon is in the fuck the war coalition, and the photo of whomever you think is me. We haven't met. And dont be surprised if some admin hides your post for containing threats of violence, it wasn't me.

"Danny who are u? never seen u about. apart From paranoid nonsense on here." Aye he doesn't do much aside from voice his paranoia on indymedia sites and occasionally threaten people. Don't feed the trolls folks! "Makhno&MI5 show" Admittedly that is one of the funnier things he's posted. :)

After this article was posted Edinburgh Evening News published this article:

Warning after 4x4 attacks

POLICE chiefs have warned they will come down hard on anyone caught tampering with 4x4 cars. The warning comes after climate change activists made claims on the internet that they had deflated the tyres on ten 4x4s over the last two months in Edinburgh as part of a protest over high vehicle emissions.

A police spokesman said: "This type of irresponsible behaviour cannot be tolerated, and anyone caught illegally deflating the tyres on any vehicle – be that a 4x4 or otherwise – will be dealt with appropriately."

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Warning-after—4x4-attacks...

there's also the spring cleaning week at faslane from 4th-11th of April. Workshops, working, actions and tea...

Heh, what ever happened to the war to end all wars, which each and every country supports and works to make sure that the dismantling of the war machine and is manufactury is the sure road to genuine liberation and full freedom. Nuremburg Trials states that the planning and doing of aggressive war is the supreme international crime on the planet, because it set loose a chain reaction of crimes big and small, high and low. All empires end because they do harm and evil practices. Peace equals disarmament. Canadas' First Canadian Division says that. tom of the old first div.

"they are the only two people in edinburgh who espouse the primitivist line of '6 billion people ought to die, so we can live in the iron age' and they are both in this stupid group 'The Anti-Farming Alliance'" Firstly, how do you know they are the only two in edinburgh? Have you done a survey or something? Secondly, is that a direct quote from them? I have met hundreds and hundreds of primitivists and anti-civilisation anarchists over the past years and have never, ever heard even one of them say that or anything even remotely close. That comment is completely ignorant of deeply formulated critique of civilisation, (read some derrick jensen or chellis glendinning) which is becoming more and more mainstream with every animal/plant that goes extinct around 50 a day at the mo and every tree that gets chopped down (dont know figures but the planet used to be covered in them), much more mainstream infact that boring not going anywhere leftist critique of capitalism. I pick up on some fear (and sub-conscious realisation) of the failure of your ideology and a questioning of your privileges. Its easy to love industry when your not being killed in a mine or chopped down or having your waters polluted and also when you are not holistically connected to the earth but are floating about in some cyberworld

The reason that people know there is only two of them and what they say is because we've heard them say it. Simple as. No-one is saying that primitivist ideas shouldnt be discussed and thought about. However, when people claiming to be anarchists start talking about mass killings there is trouble. Also, you shouldn't assume that just because people arent primitavist that they are pro-industrial. I'm not a huge fan of primitavism, but I am still involved in anti-industrial pro-wilderness action. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

You dont seem to have actually read my last comment. Just because their are two of them acting in AFA that doesn't mean their aren't more anti-civ/primitivist anarchists in edinburgh Also, i didn't say or assume it had to be one or the other, their are infinite possibilities for a world beyond industrialism/mass society Keep up the anti-industry pro-wilderness action, nice one

Sentient carrot = Anti-Farming Alliance geezer.

Well Mr Carrot: Lets imagine that we all eat our mung beans, rather than use them to stop SUV's, and an ecological collapse happens. How are you going to stop the ruling class from continuing with capitalism and class society? So there might be 6 billion people less on the planet, but the 100 million or so that remain will definitely include the ruling class, who will have used their wealth and power to protect themselves from the collapse. They will surely still have the power and weapons, and so could force us to work to continue creating wealth for them in an industrial society. Some useful criticism of primitivism/anti-civilisation/anti-technology - http://libcom.org/thought/anarcho-primitivism-anti-civilisation-criticism http://libcom.org/library/anarchism-vs-primitivism

Yah Libcom!! See you are an entryist SWP faker!!! Yah Boo Wibble!!! Quite good articles, hopefully these AFA folk will read them and grow up a wee bit :)

I haven't seen many current members of the forces in Parliament Square protecting Brian Haw from the Met. Its all very good saying the soldiers protect our democracy but the reality is that our ability to protest against the war is being slowly eroded.

;)

AFA, which website would that be? As far as I know he doesn't have a website.

Anonymous:- Well done the sentient carrot has links to AFA Makhno (Whos that? [nae gods, nae masters]):- your post barely credits my responding to, a planet with 6 billion dead and only the ruling class alive, (who knows what that would be like?) obviously mass society couldn't survive and the ruling class can barely wipe their own asses let alone live without army's/police/wageslaves to protect them and/or in a mad max style situation. Miserabilist:- "grow up a wee bit" What has the sentient carrot wrote exactly that makes you think she is like a child? please go into more depth on this random comment. if u like. I personally don't like discussing stuff on impersonal metal boxes (forums/discussion boards are generally ego-led and unreal forms of communication) so if anyone wants to discuss this then please come into ACE next sat 12th cos i'll be there or check out the zines on this subject that are available in ACE/the Drill Hall/Wordpower Cyberlove and respect

"Miserabilist:- "grow up a wee bit" What has the sentient carrot wrote exactly that makes you think she is like a child? please go into more depth on this random comment. if u like." She wrote a load of primmo nonsense about being holistically connected to the earth and advised people to read Jensen and Glendenning both of whom I have read myself. These authors are more like 'radical' self help books than coherent criticisms of capital or society. She also denies that for primitivism to work then the vast majority of the worlds population would have to die. It does not matter whether someone prefixes primitivism with @narcho or whatever for humanity to return to a gatherer hunter way of life then billions would have to die. Primitivism revels in alienation and misanthropy which makes it attractive to some young rebels. I've known many primmos over the years, hell I once identified with primitivism, but most seem to grow out of it as their political understanding matures. Could I get any more condescending? :) Also, for the record like. Anarcho-Primitivism has, despite its name about as much to do with Anarchism as Anarcho-Capitalism.

Ummmmm, we ARE holistically connected to the earth, (where does your food come from?) we can't exist without it!! Jensen has written a massive coherent argument against civilisation and has backed that up with a stunning amount of info, he also gives ways of liberating ourselves from this machine. Alienation and misanthropy??????? Ummmmmm, modern society is alienating and misanthropic as it seperates us in boxes and is on a course of self extinction, which is currently being actualised in people living stunted dead lives (remember the situationist/crimethinc phrase?). Primitivism is exactly the opposite and is all about us becoming alive in our environment/bodies and reaching our/the planets potential. Funny how we always get back to this "billions have to die" chestnut. Blah, Blah, Blah. Billions are dying and billions have died, species are going extinct every day, the piddly last amount of ancient forest ecosystem is currently being chopped down and dead zones in the sea are spreading (most sea life levels/non-polluted waters are at 10% of their pre-industrialism levels). If this isn't genocide then what is? Perhaps we need to move away from discussing the imagined primitive misanthropy and start talking about the dangers of mono/human centrism and how they are causing extinction/death. Thats a much more urgently needed debate as its reality. I haven't seen primitivism as attracting "young rebels", i have seen the anarcho-punk and the animal liberation movements attracting them and i have also seen massive nihilism and misanthropy in these movements (i was a nihilistic misanthropic vegan punk for many years and primitive living/life-way helped me move on/grow away from this) So what do you identify with miserabilist?

"Funny how we always get back to this "billions have to die" chestnut. Blah, Blah, Blah"

Excuse me? so peoples lives are not important? what a callous and misanthropic point of view. This ideology is as filthy as the BNPs for fucks sake.

I agree we need to stop destroying the forests and the oceans, precisely because i want to have a healthy planet populated by lots of happy animals. But why does this mean that we need an "eco-centric" ideology that has some strange mystical idea about the planet as an organism in its own right? it functions like an organism, but it is not sentient, it is not concsious.

Human beings are the finest creature on this planet, we have space travel, mathematics, art. We sometimes demonstrate a huge amount of compassion and love for one another. We definately do a lot of horrible shit - and it seems that what primitivists advocate is up there with the worst of it - but we are worth saving, and we can save this planet and co-exist with the other life on this planet in a sustainable way.

"Imagined primitivist misanthropy"? You pretty much prove that it isnt imagined when you dismiss billions of deaths as 'that old chesnut bla bla bla'. The lack of engagement with that point, and your dismissal of it proves that primitivism has some serious lack of intelligent ideas

Mass starvation is fucking horrible, it is only an over-privileged middle class person who would advocate an ideology that refers to people dying like that - anyone with any human compassion or someone who is struggling against hunger would not advocate mass deaths.

You have an eco-centric ideology, so lets imagine a planet without any human beings for a moment. What would be the point of a such a planet? Who would enjoy it? Human beings are the only creature with the capacity to value anything (in the sense of 'this has moral value, or this is good etc'), so if we were all exterminated or allowed to become extinct to save the planet, or whatever, there would be a world without such value, so what would be the point of being eco-centric on a planet without human beings? There would be no theory of value at all. Your ideology is internally contradictory on that point.

You also didnt even provide a counter argument to the problem of class society, you just dismissed it. How do we get from a class society to a primitivist society? After a 'collapse' how would we stop the ruling class people with the guns and technology dominating and exploiting the rest of us? They will keep their army and police, and force the rest of us to work to maintain their wealth as much after a collapse as now.

Not only is it extremely misanthropic, it also has no answers to fundamental questions.

We dont need to forget the value of human beings, as primitivists do, to save the planet!

Disclaimer:- Their may be a lot of sarcasm in this post please don't automatically get defensive as sarcasm is the way i generally express myself in writing spontaneous impersonal messages. I promise i have the utmost respect for you. You seem hugely defensive to the point that you don't even READ or try and understand (which you haven't)what i am writing. In commenting on chestnuts i was referring to the stereotype that all primitivists want billions dead, i was not supporting that stereotype. If you had read my post (try reading it again) then it would be clear that i am not anti-human at all, i love all life equally. "some strange mystical idea about the planet as an organism in its own right? it functions like an organism, but it is not sentient, it is not concsious" Thats an opinion on your part and a very recent one. up until the inception of domestication thousands of cultures (for hundreds of thousands of years) viewed (and still view) the earth as sentient and/or conscious. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Life is an amazing thing and i don't believe it evolved out of fluke. "Human beings are the finest creature on this planet, we have space travel, mathematics, art." Lucky us - all the other animals and plants must be extremely jealous. "and it seems that what primitivists advocate is up there with the worst of it" This deserves another blah, blah, blah. I'm repeating myself unecesarily but ill do it anyway. No primitivist i've ever met (including the ones who i visited in whats left of the atlantic rainforest outside of Sao Paulo [a traumatising mostly slum of 20 million people - sorry, a great achievement from the finest creature on this planet], who were killing themselves through alcoholism and suicide) has advocated what you are talking about. ""Imagined primitivist misanthropy"? You pretty much prove that it isnt imagined when you dismiss billions of deaths as 'that old chesnut bla bla bla'. Again, i didn't do that, it's totally imagined. "The lack of engagement with that point, and your dismissal of it proves that primitivism has some serious lack of intelligent ideas" Try reading some, they are very intelligent and thorough. "What would be the point of a such a planet? Who would enjoy it?" So what you are saying their is that the planet may as well not exist without humans?!?!?!?! I'm sure the dinosaurs loved the planet and weren't sitting around waiting for humans to come along bored out of their brains at how inferior they were. "Human beings are the only creature with the capacity to value anything (in the sense of 'this has moral value, or this is good etc')............." Value (heirarchy) along with dualism (good and bad) are also very recent inventions and quite unnatural. "We dont need to forget the value of human beings, as primitivists do" No they dont. I don't know how to get from a class society to a primitive one (its obviously not that easy/probably not possible as you pointed out without a lot of the human race dying) - i actually dont want a primitive society, just one where we are more connected to the earth (and therefore more alive, mature and sane), one without mass society (where we have control over our lives and are not directed) and one that doesn't end up with the complete destruction of the planet/all life on it would be nice. Like i said before i'd prefer to meet up and talk about this, (which i believe we tried before but you obviously seem more comfortable conversing with a computer). I'll be in ACE on saturday (a great space for debating this sort of thing) bring some friends and we'll have a party. With respect.

'Thats an opinion on your part and a very recent one. up until the inception of domestication thousands of cultures (for hundreds of thousands of years) viewed (and still view) the earth as sentient and/or conscious. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Life is an amazing thing and i don't believe it evolved out of fluke.' Yeah but for a similar amount of time people thought that the world was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that disease and sickness were caused by evil spirits. You don't beleive in evolution? wtf!?! 'This deserves another blah, blah, blah. I'm repeating myself unecesarily but ill do it anyway. No primitivist i've ever met (including the ones who i visited in whats left of the atlantic rainforest outside of Sao Paulo [a traumatising mostly slum of 20 million people - sorry, a great achievement from the finest creature on this planet], who were killing themselves through alcoholism and suicide) has advocated what you are talking about.' That's odd, you see I've read a lot of primmo literature and followed primmo discussions and certainparts of that milieu have in the past stated that AIDS is a good thing and that the US should close its borders. To return to the idealised state of nature that primmos desire would involve the deaths of billions of people. Without agriculture there is no way to feed the people of the planet. "The lack of engagement with that point, and your dismissal of it proves that primitivism has some serious lack of intelligent ideas" 'Try reading some, they are very intelligent and thorough.' I myself have read Jensen, Zerzan and far more copies of Anarchy, Green Anarchist and Green Anarchy than I care to remember. What stands out on all the literature is misanthropy and quasi-mystical bullshit. Not to mention the homicidal ramblings of Steve Booth. With the exception of Jensen, who writes quite good therapy books and Zerzans Origins essay most if not all I've read could not be described as intelligent and thorough. "Human beings are the only creature with the capacity to value anything (in the sense of 'this has moral value, or this is good etc')............." Value (heirarchy) along with dualism (good and bad) are also very recent inventions and quite unnatural. Seriously go and read some anthropology.

Dave Foreman founder of Earth First: In the Australian magazine Simply Living, Foreman stated that, “the best thing would be to just let the people there [Ethiopia] starve.. .“ He has made similar statements to the local media in Tucson, where Earth First! (the organ of Earth First!) is published. Another quote from the earth First Journal In a similar vein, “Miss Ann Thropy,” a regular contributor to Earthi First!, has argued that AIDS is a “good” thing, because it will reduce population. In the May 1, 1987 issue of that paper, ‘Throp” stated: “if the AIDS epidemic didn’t exist, radical environmentalists would have to invent one [an epidemic].” In the Dec. 22, 1987 issue of Earth First!, she adds that ... . the AIDS epidemic, rather than being a scourge, is a welcome development in the inevitable reduction of human population.” And read this http://libcom.org/library/anarchism-vs-primitivism/6-the-bloody-side-of-...

my 4x4 was targeted - firstly a window and then 2 tyres - no note and more worryingly 2 tyres failed to deflate - this is just plain dangerous and represents a clear attempt to harm drivers,passenegersand pedestrians. Plus anytime these cars break down you just call the garage and a taxi - what is the point? Surely just using them less rather than creating more co2 and trying to kill/maim people is the answer.

Using them less doesn't change anything, the level of eco-system destruction is already too far gone for that.

'Using them less doesn't change anything, the level of eco-system destruction is already too far gone for that.' Wow, we've got a climatologist posting.

"Using them less doesn't change anything, the level of eco-system destruction is already too far gone for that."

We're all doomed!

Sounds like Derrik Jenson-esque pseudo-scientific primitivist chat to me!

Why are you going to iceland then mate, lets see some coherence in your thinking.

to prevent ecological destruction pal - for example if all of the dams in iceland go ahead, then the silt which comes down the rivers to feed the algal bloom will be drastically effected. The algal bloom is a carbon sink on the scale of the Amazon Rainforest. So poo to you AFA!

SavingIceland wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for the AFA.

The AFA wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for Alan Titchmarsh.